Maturity

Why practice man

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Part 2-Maturity

Bertrand Catry

Hello Francis Delaye,

I am lucky to be back in your house near Chartres. And so, we see ourselves today for this second part that we will dedicate to the maturity of your 40 years that you begin in 1963. I remind that you were born in 1923.

To start I wondered about this famous … you will tell us a little bit about the stakes of the dream that you are making, which is not trivial at all. You have a dream of a week, and I understood – tell me how far we must go – I realized that this dream would change your life because it will recap a somewhat new encounter of Science and Art.

Francis Delaye

… and of the religion.

Bertrand Catry

Of course, and of the religion! Two senses, in this reunification AND of the religion. What is that dream? How did it get here? What did it train? What did it change in your life? In your profession – you are all the same a painter and artist above all – what is it going to change? What is it going to shake up in your life? And, at the level of sciences you don’t have strictly speaking a scientific training, but this dream will engender, will produce a scientific teaching, science-art, with this common denominator, this ferment of the religion that will irrigate this meeting. I talk too much; it is up to you!

Francis Delaye

In 1963 I had resumed my work with my wife on the search for the aesthetics of relief on a flat surface in Art, and I had thought that relief photography could help me, especially in portraits. And it was at this moment that suddenly it unfolded before me, in an unusual dream, all the possibilities of the photographic relief on a flat surface, until find what I was looking for. It was stereoscopy. Then I jumped in search of aesthetics in the relief not on a flat surface but out of a flat surface, which is called the hologram, which I did not know, and for which with mathematical research I found a definition that turned out different from the second part of the one used at that time on this subject.  And then I continued with a spiral material generator that turned light into matter; but then I didn’t linger on there, I came across the search for the power integrator.

Bertrand Catry

So, let’s talk about it! That famous engine!

This famous engine, what does it allow? Did this engine ever work? In the talks we had on to prepare this interview you tell me the existence of a prototype, a model. This universal engine, what does it smell like? What shape does it have? What is it made of? What is it made up of? Is it fiction? Or could this engine one day really take shape? What is it? How is it different from the philosopher’s stone, from the Graal? Is it incorporated? He traveled until the United States! Tell us a little bit about the fabulous odyssey of this famous engine?

Francis Delaye

I can tell it to you from the evolution that has happened. Personally, I didn’t stop at this ions engine. I simply saw the problem it raised for the union of sciences and religions, and the problem of the unity of religions that imposed itself on me with regard to the messianic message of Jesus Christ, and especially its inversion, dramatic, which the Virgin Mary showed me.

Bertrand Catry

Before we talk about inversion, let us leave it, this engine, if you want so, in its phase …, for the understanding of our listeners, let us return to the genesis of this engine, before the excesses it might experience and the misuse that science would make of it if it were not subject to the love of God revealed by his humility, which is itself revealed by the humiliation of Christ. We will redevelop these points which can thus be said to be invigorating. This first engine as it exists, in its original purpose before it is eventually turned away, what would it allow?  Tell us that.

Francis Delaye

I dropped a bit of this engine that was beyond me, until the year 2000. From the year 2000, in a precise way I saw on the Internet of Nasa a ball called ions engine that was working at the speed of light, and which probably gathering in circles, was to have an impact on the vision that people had about it. And that’s after I kept looking on the internet at the evolution of this ions engine. I’ve seen  some of the most wacky designs for a very long time, and it’s only now, in a very recent way, that has been established an ions engine with enormous energy that would be able to conduct some research in the atmosphere.

Bertrand Catry

In what this engine can be a vector? How in your book Jesus Master of Secularism, this ions engine…, how do you bridge or a join between the opportunity that this engine represents for the salvation of men, and the prayer contemplation you make of divine humility revealed by God’s humiliation? How does the man of faith use such flexibility? You are, I said, an athlete of our Lord, of God Jesus Christ, but how are you also able to move from physics to faith?  And how, by bringing the two together, you propose us a universal salvation through the viaticum of Christ’s humiliation in his passion in Golgotha, and of this humiliation that comes to reveal the divine humility on which we all, every man, can count?

Francis Delaye

I am not the one who can make the bridge. It is God. It is God who humiliates himself to the point of touching with finger, until, if you will, touch with foots the sciences, such as for example in Cana, Jesus Christ went down until to turn water into excellent wine and in industrial quantity for the joy of the bride and groom. It is the same, in the same way, it is a little ambiguous, it is God who is above all and who reveals to us a universe different from ours, absolutely magnificent but hidden, and who descends to this ungrateful land, and where men are perhaps seeking to indulge in their demon instead of indulging in God, who comes to give us a respite time for the conversion of the world.

Bertrand Catry

You propose to us, you announce the power of this humiliation which thus comes to reveal the divine humility of God. You see thus, you announce the reconciliation of the whole religions. Aren’t we, Christians and non-Christians – I make me the devil’s advocate, but I will come back not demonized – will we not run the risk of gnosis? Tell us in your faith and in what you propose to the Pope – you are in a relations and you regularly write to the Pope – how can you reassure us about the very important Gnostic movement that may have been there in past times? How does your announcement of humiliation and therefore divine humility differentiate you from a practitioner of the Gnosis?

Francis Delaye

The gnosis considers the power of sciences as the goal, but for me what I see in the ions engine that I called integral dependent, a time during which it will run, but a time counted before it reverses. While the gnosis believes that it is the reversal of this engine that counts.

Bertrand Catry

That is right! Thank you for this precision and clarity, Francis Delaye, for your reply, which can bluff us all because I find it truly extremely inner and extremely sincere. So, the integration of this engine into your faith is a chance for humanity before this engine reverses, but you pray every day that it does not reverse. I come back to the title of your book Jesus Master of Secularism. Deep down, it seems to me, tell me if I am wrong, you present to us the humiliation that the Lord experienced in his Passion, his message there by his humiliation is more important than Love which is a kind of cream pie on which Christians would have weigh down themselves a little for several centuries. This humility opens the way for the revelation of this principle of eternal life that would apply to all religions. And, is it precisely this universality, which allows us to understand Jesus Master of Secularism in the sense that you say him as predating Christianity, that is to say that Jesus, the message of Jesus, is no longer at all in a contextual environment, historical, Jesus, his teaching and the strength he proposes to us would ultimately precede the advent of Christianity, and at the same time Master of Secularism because common to all religions. Basically, you go to get out of the locking up, Jesus. Men have locked him too much into precisely the religion. I simply finish these words maybe a little, not heretics or apocryphal… Doesn’t your work live to de-incarcerate, allow me this expression, to de-incarcerate Christ from the Christian religion, basically? To take him out of the Christian religion in which one has locked him up too much? And so as opposed to other religions when your whole life aims to reunite these religions by recognizing this transcendence of God’s divine humility?

Francis Delaye

Yes, in fact the Christian religion gives birth, would proceed to a birth of the union of religions, the revelation of the divine humility of God. This does not prevent Christians from going there by the way of Love which is revealed by Christ as well. In such a way that there would be two distinct personalities in Christ. In human Christ, I hear. One of Jewish prophet of divine Love and the other of universal Messiah of God’s humility. And for Christians it is a test, a little, because the Love of God as St. Paul says, is all for the Christian. But one would tend a little to put a final point in it when in divine Love there is no final point, and he can annihilate itself with regard to charity for others.

Bertrand Catry

It is precisely the overcoming of the suffering of his humiliation. Because humiliation is the starting point of everything. Without this humiliation nothing happens. What does the resurrection open? It is the opportunity for us to experience our own suffering! To humiliate ourselves in turn so that metabolizing our own suffering – it is all the work of etiotherapy that is a very active current today in today’s therapies – by metabolizing one’s own suffering, by bringing it up by this resurrection of the flesh that will come in time accomplished during parousia, that is to say of the definitive return of God to earth, and so, metabolizing this suffering we have this incredible chance, Christians and non-Christians, that is what you say, religious and non-religious, to know if not bliss but in any case to glimpse this path of salvation that you announce for all men, Francis Delaye.

Francis Delaye

But, if you will when we talk about humiliation, we scare everyone away.

Bertrand Catry

Yes, I agree!

Francis Delaye

Because humiliation and nature don’t get well with at all! But if we talk about the humiliation of God himself for us, it is a little different in that we realize that our demon to which we engage is really anti-divinity.

Bertrand Catry

Remind us what our demon is to us?

Francis Delaye

The demon of ours is our search for ourselves.

Bertrand Catry

That is our pride, isn’t it?

Francis Delaye

It is our pride, our ego, our selfishness, all you want, you can call it by all the names one want, but it is a demon, it is pride.

Bertrand Catry

That is right, it is taking yourself for God, in fact, it is a demon! It is infinite pride! While god is precisely all humility, he is absolutely not pride.

Francis Delaye

This humiliation of God leads us to true humility, if one recognizes it in Jesus Christ. That is it, I think.

Bertrand Catry

What would be for you, from the moment we enter into the discourse of humiliation and therefore of humility and the infinite sweetness that it reveals for all of us, what might be the fruits, what could be the possible life for whole humanity from the moment we assimilate, when we can enter this virtuous circle of humiliation-humility-salvation? Is there a possibility of a global reconciliation of humanity and therefore of happy time, in your opinion? Could we know happy times?

Francis Delaye

Yes of course. It is not a question of humiliating yourself all the time. But humiliation is necessary for humility. Without humiliation there is no humility.

Bertrand Catry

… there is no humility, that, I think our listeners hear it, yes.

Francis Delaye

And the most suitable humiliation for humility is religious practice. The religious practice in all religions on which one depends to recognize that of Jesus Christ by the way of which one has the faith. And it is for humanity an immense good because humility has enormous power from the point of view of the principle of life of the universes.

Bertrand Catry

You distinguish it from Love when, deep down when I hear this echo and this call, this announce, not as a Messiah – it would be sacrilege, but sometimes one has the impression to hear you as a messiah, you have already been told it – but deep down, this religious practice, this immersion in divine humility can lead us to this perfect Love that Jesus Christ represents? That perfect Love! How does humility, the gentleness which is proposed by humility, what is the meeting point, what is the point of difference between the outcome, the fruits of religious practice and humility in relation to the idea that we have, Christians and non-Christians, of the perfect Love?

Francis Delaye

It took me to reach this conclusion more than sixty years of meditation and avoid all the data of Catholic theology by first using my religion and realizing that there was a certain dichotomy between the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bonaventure with regard to the nature of pure spirits, which was linked to their diametrically opposed philosophies of each other. And then looking for into the history of religions and philosophies I realized what was exactly going on in the Catholic faith and on the principle of non-contradiction. And I put in the year 2000 a philosophy based on the principle of contradiction that would have brought the two together, but all this is secondary. What matters is the heart of the faithful, whether they are of any religion, established in God either by Christian divine Love, by the  Jewish Love of obedience, or by the Muslim Love of worship, etc., up to Chinese Love of compunction which is very different but is fundamental.

Bertrand Catry

We were at the moment on the subjects of the Chinese compunction, Muslim worship and also Jewish worship; we are at the end of this second part, this second interview, you are approaching your 65-70 years; you are going to tell us, religiously, of this theology that opposes Saint-Bonaventure against St. Thomas on the one hand, and on the other hand it seems to me that at 65 you still have, dare I say it, your eyes turned to America because you have not given up, far from it, your profession as a painter, and I think you have painted a secretary woman in the United States? Can you tell us a little bit more?

Francis Delaye

I had done an exhibition in my father’s office that had earned me the big eyes of the owner who had sent a notary or a lawyer to find that  some paintings was being sold in the commercial premise and that the rent could then be increased. And I had a visit from an American woman who had commissioned her portrait to me. And I did her portrait and it went to Austria I think and that is where I found her to bring her my portrait whose purchase had warmed me, because the sale of my paintings was not obvious.

Bertrand Catry

From the religious man to the artist, does one begin to prevail over the other? From this created beauty to uncreated beauty, you are 65-70 years old, remind me, your children have already grown, you have had 6, we are in the years 1985-1990, that is right! And in your daily time the time of prayer, the time of the monitoring of the Hours, of the Liturgy of the Hours, occupies you more and more.

Francis Delaye

But doesn’t choke me!

Bertrand Catry

No, without choking you! occupies you in your daily life more and more!

Francis Delaye

Prayer has never left me since my conversion in 1946. 

Bertrand Catry

Yes.

Francis Delaye

I’ve always prayed intensely and more and more. In fact, I have evolved in the knowledge of Christ more and more and it is obvious, it is certain that my love for him has never wavered. I have always been faithful; in all our trips with my wife that took place in Turkey or South America, … I have always been faithful to the daily Mass or to meet the Catholic priests of the place, especially in Turkey where they are very few and very frowned upon.

Bertrand Catry

You went to Trebizond, perhaps, on the Black Sea?

Francis Delaye

Sorry?

Bertrand Catry

Maybe you went to Turkey on this very old Christian land in the Trebizond bishop land?

Francis Delaye

Yes, St. Sophia?

Bertrand Catry

Yes, that is it! That is right.

Francis Delaye

Yes, we visited St. Sophia and it was an important Christian land that passed to the Muslim Church.

Bertrand Catry

In your prayers…, and we will conclude our interview perhaps on this last message, we will deal with this point precisely from the heart, the content of your prayers, the man of faith that you are: You are 97 years old – my respects! Ninety-seven years old! What is your greatest hope? It is 2020, we have been “covid”  each other — excuse me for making an aside from the news but it will still mark the time and several generations – you told me just now when I arrived in your house this morning, that the covid, this news, invites, proposes and opens people to a resumption of faith, of prayer. In relation to the hope you have of humanity, depending on the reversal or not of this famous ions engine, is this Covid, will this news that will mark men for a while, is it a chance? And if so does it fit into your hope of returning to God, ultimately?

Francis Delaye

Yes, I think it was Providence that allowed this, to strengthen Man’s ties with him a little, but I also think and I also hope, at last I hoped that my evangelical mission would be continued by my children and grandchildren, or by children of the Church so as to bring religions together in the face of this terrible inversion that can take place.

Bertrand Catry

All right. Your blood children, your grandchildren, you have one of your grandsons who has resided in your family home for a long time this summer, and then other grandchildren…, transmissions know ways that alone are known to the Lord. If I may say so!

Francis Delaye

Yes, they alone are known to the Lord.

Bertrand Catry

They alone are known to the Lord! ONE would like to own them, it would be comfort in the end if you had a grandson who embraces the Catholic religion or embraces the Orders; it would be fine, it would fit, Mr. Delaye, in your comfort zone. Let me perhaps this hope and this conviction that the transmissions that are at work today of this passing of the Gospel, this evangelical handover it is at work but in only terms known to our Lord.

Francis Delaye

Yes, of course, especially since I don’t know if I’ll see anything of that before I die, given my age; and neither Abraham, nor Jesus, nor Moses, nor any of the great prophets saw the fulfillment of their prophecies in their lifetime. Then I am nothing! I wrote to the Pope that I was but a stepping-stone by a penitent theologian to come who would listen to all that I am unable to listen to.

Bertrand Catry

Thank you Francis Delaye again for this work and this achievement that we had the pleasure to produce for our listeners; and with heart we make appointment for a third part dedicated to your faith proper, which we will try to dig as deeply as possible to benefit the as many as possible. And I also thank the technical stage of this day for its work.

See you very soon on our airwaves; and to very soon on social networks.